God saved me? -OR- I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour to be saved?

[toddm]

if you want to be saved then "repeat this word after me, Jesus I accept you as my Lord and Saviour".
or
Preacher: If you want to be saved then accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. will that guarantee person's salvation?

Yes, as long as the Holy Spirit has regenerated you in order to sincerely respond. I think your options are rather simplistic, because it lacks an explanation of the Gospel. Are we assuming that the Gospel has been fully and faithfully proclaimed and THEN the above invitation is set forth?

Why would anyone need to hear the Gospel, I chose Jesus as my savior, because the guy told me, that Jesus loves me, I was like, I love me too, and then the guy said that Jesus wanted to give me a purpose for my life, and I was like I could use a purpose, he told me that Jesus would give me anything and everything that my heart desired, and I was like, I want anything and everything my heart desires. Unlike Buddha who just wants me to give up all of my earthly desires so I can become a jedi just like him, or Mohamed, who said I have to pray 5 times a day, Jesus just wants me to choose him, so I checked yes.

Ummmm...are you joking? Because there are several things wrong with the "Jesus" you checked 'yes' to.

Haha, Todd, yes, he was speaking tongues in cheek.  er....  Sadly though, it's not far off what many churches preach from the pulpit...

Haha..okay. I haven't been on the forums lately, so my "sarcasm detector" is a bit rusty.

[w4n]

Haha, Todd, yes, he was speaking tongues in cheek.  er....  Sadly though, it's not far off what many churches preach from the pulpit...

Haha..okay. I haven't been on the forums lately, so my "sarcasm detector" is a bit rusty.

It's all good brother, I'll watch your back till you knock some of that rust off... 

[rojoloco]

Here are a few quotes by John Murray that I think are very helpful on this matter:

"Salvation is of the Lord in its application as well as in its conception and accomplishment." -- John Murray

 "A cheap and tawdry evangelism has tended to rob the gospel which it proclaims of that invincible power which is the glory of the gospel of sovereign grace. May the church come to think and live again in terms of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation." -- John Murray

"We are not born again by faith or repentence or conversion; we repent and believe because we have been regenerated........No one can say in truth that Jesus is the Christ except by regeneration of the Spirit and that is one of the ways by which the Holy Spirit glorifies Christ. The embrace of Christ in faith is the first evidence of regeneration and only thus may we know that we have been regenerated." -- John Murray

"We are as dependent upon the Holy Spirit as we are upon the actio of our parents in connection with our natural birth.......We were not begotten by our father because we decided to be. And we were not born of our mother because we decided to be. We were simply begotten and we were born. We did not decide to be born. This is the simple but too frequently overlooked Truth which our Lord here teaches us." -- John Murray

"The new birth causes and explains the state of freedom om the dominion of sin and is therefore prior to such freedom........Our Lord told Nicodemus that except a man be born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God and except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Obviously, seeing and entering into the kingdom of God belong to the application of redemption, and out Lord indicates that apart from the new birth, regeneration... See More, there cannot be this seeing or entering into the kingdom of God. It follows that regeneration is prior and it would plainly be impossible to reverse the order and say that a man is regenerated by seeing or entering into the kingdom of God." -- John Murray

"Whether the expression "limited atonement" is good or not we must reckon with the fact that unless we believe in the final restoration of all men we cannot have an unlimited atonement." -- John Murray

"There can be no doubt respecting the proposition that all for whom Christ died also died in Christ" -- John Murray



This leaves the ONLY possible order to be:

Calling
regeneration
faith
repentance
justification
adoption
sanctification
perseverance
glorification

...which puts everything on God.

[Nerd42]

Though I am very very not "reformed," I would also say that "God saves me" and "I accept Jesus" are both true. The question is whether I accept Jesus because God saves me, (Reformed) or if God saves me because I accept Jesus. (Unreformed)

[toddm]

Though I am very very not "reformed," I would also say that "God saves me" and "I accept Jesus" are both true. The question is whether I accept Jesus because God saves me, (Reformed)

In other words, God does it ALL.

or if God saves me because I accept Jesus. (Unreformed)

In other words, God's saving grace is conditional and He leaves the "ball" in the person's court, who's nature is contrary to God, to choose Him...and somehow people think that this view is the more loving one  That's like someone saying, "well, I saw that you were lying motionless at the bottom of the pool and I threw you a life preserver, but you didn't grab it."

[Nerd42]

Though I am very very not "reformed," I would also say that "God saves me" and "I accept Jesus" are both true. The question is whether I accept Jesus because God saves me, (Reformed)

In other words, God does it ALL.

All I was trying to do in that sentence was clarify what the question that divides people is. I think I used neutral and objective language and was not trying to push my own view in how I stated it. Pushing someone's particular view is not "in other words" - it's really a whole different spin on the idea. If I was trying to push an ideology like you just were, I'd say, "In other words, God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake." I mean look, do we always have to bicker about everything?

[jkmtwo]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake 

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

[Nerd42]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake  

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

That statement is a denial of the Genesis record.

[FenderPriest]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake 

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

So you're a Gnostic? Be careful with the meaning of words my brother.

[jkmtwo]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake 

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

So you're a Gnostic? Be careful with the meaning of words my brother.

Is being a gnostic bad? lol, no I am not a gnostic, I was joking, although I would say, that I could agree with his statement on Romans 3:4 grounds....

[Nerd42]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake  

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

So you're a Gnostic? Be careful with the meaning of words my brother.

Is being a gnostic bad? lol, no I am not a gnostic, I was joking, although I would say, that I could agree with his statement on Romans 3:4 grounds....

If Romans said that, then we'd know that Biblical Christianity is false, for even the orthodox Jews understand that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. I'm pretty sure even the Muslims understand at least that much. Nothing Paul could say could alter this fact, if it really is a fact. I think you've just proved my point about pantheism hiding at the back of at least some forms of Calvinism. Pantheism is the doctrine that nothing except God really exists, or in other words (Not my particular spin - really the same idea) that God is everything and everything is God. When I said, "God is the only thing that really exists," that's basically pantheism.

Christianity is not pantheistic. It is monotheistic. It does not teach that the world is an illusion - that abominable false doctrine comes out of Eastern religions, gnosticism, and, more recently, philosophical relativism or subjectivism.

[jkmtwo]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake  

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

So you're a Gnostic? Be careful with the meaning of words my brother.

Is being a gnostic bad? lol, no I am not a gnostic, I was joking, although I would say, that I could agree with his statement on Romans 3:4 grounds....

If Romans said that, then we'd know that Biblical Christianity is false, for even the orthodox Jews understand that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. I'm pretty sure even the Muslims understand at least that much. Nothing Paul could say could alter this fact, if it really is a fact. I think you've just proved my point about pantheism hiding at the back of at least some forms of Calvinism. Pantheism is the doctrine that nothing except God really exists, or in other words (Not my particular spin - really the same idea) that God is everything and everything is God. When I said, "God is the only thing that really exists," that's basically pantheism.

Christianity is not pantheistic. It is monotheistic. It does not teach that the world is an illusion - that abominable false doctrine comes out of Eastern religions, gnosticism, and, more recently, philosophical relativism or subjectivism.

Seriously, I didn't know that it was against Mormon doctrine to have a sense of humor, but on the real the day I take a lecture from a follower of Joseph Smith on the nature of Monotheism versus a joke that I made, as noted by the cheezy smiley, well I guess that will be the day.

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."- Joseph Smith- The King Follett Sermon- April 7, 1844
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1a79945bd384b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1   

Please don't lecture me when your prophet taught that God wasn't always God, and that we can one day be like him.

[linkbolt]

God is the only thing that really exists and everyone and everything else is fake  

Finally you said something I can completely and totally agree with

So you're a Gnostic? Be careful with the meaning of words my brother.

Is being a gnostic bad? lol, no I am not a gnostic, I was joking, although I would say, that I could agree with his statement on Romans 3:4 grounds....

If Romans said that, then we'd know that Biblical Christianity is false, for even the orthodox Jews understand that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. I'm pretty sure even the Muslims understand at least that much. Nothing Paul could say could alter this fact, if it really is a fact. I think you've just proved my point about pantheism hiding at the back of at least some forms of Calvinism. Pantheism is the doctrine that nothing except God really exists, or in other words (Not my particular spin - really the same idea) that God is everything and everything is God. When I said, "God is the only thing that really exists," that's basically pantheism.

Christianity is not pantheistic. It is monotheistic. It does not teach that the world is an illusion - that abominable false doctrine comes out of Eastern religions, gnosticism, and, more recently, philosophical relativism or subjectivism.

He was obviously joking...cough***Straw-man.

linkbolt

[Nerd42]

Seriously, I didn't know that it was against Mormon doctrine to have a sense of humor, but on the real the day I take a lecture from a follower of Joseph Smith on the nature of Monotheism versus a joke that I made, as noted by the cheezy smiley, well I guess that will be the day.

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."- Joseph Smith- The King Follett Sermon- April 7, 1844
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1a79945bd384b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1  

Please don't lecture me when your prophet taught that God wasn't always God, and that we can one day be like him.

From the page you quote: "Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete."

I think that's an understatement. This report only came forward under the LDS Brighamite regime and Mr. Smith never said that. If he had, and I'd been alive, I would have voted to excommunicate him from the very church he started, because that doctrine is not to be tolerated.

Were you joking when you said you could agree with the statement on Romans 3-4 grounds? I thought you were only joking when you asked if being gnostic was OK

[toddm]

I mean look, do we always have to bicker about everything?

Last time I checked it was called debating, and since we're in the "debate section", then I think it's entirely appropriate.

[jkmtwo]

From the page you quote: "Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete." 

Yes, I did see that, however, it is hard for me to see exactly how I, or anyone else ever could round certain thoughts out, "God wasn't always God" in a sermon about how men can become God's would be one of those thoughts that would be near impossible to round out, maybe, how a man goes about becoming a God, would be a thought that needs rounding out, but if you read the entire sermon, one can only come away with the conclusion that he did have it rounded out.

I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own hearts, what kind of a being God is? Ask yourselves; turn your thoughts into your hearts, and say if any of you have seen, heard, or communed with Him? This is a question that may occupy your attention for a long time. I again repeat the question?What kind of being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen Him, heard Him, or communed with Him? Here is the question that will, peradventure, from this time henceforth occupy your attention. The scriptures inform us that ?this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.? 

He staked his entire reputation on this sermon

My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being He is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices, or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations and inspirations, or to be a prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world?a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life.   

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible?I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form?like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.   

This seems pretty rounded to me, and I'm just quoting the introduction to the sermon, I could go on and on.

This report only came forward under the LDS Brighamite regime and Mr. Smith never said that.

Evidence? Prove it, prove he never said that, prove it.

If he had, and I'd been alive, I would have voted to excommunicate him from the very church he started, because that doctrine is not to be tolerated.

So you would have excommunicated a man, who you claim is a prophet, from the church he began,and you claim not to be a prophet, who are you to judge the prophets of God?

[Low5Point]

Arminian Hymns

Amazing Choice
How Great I Art
Just a Closer Walk With Me
To Me Be the Glory
Take My Life and Let Me Be
Jesus Loves Me This I Hope
Jesus Paid Most Of It
It Is "OK" With My Soul
Eternal Father Tries to Save
Have Mine Own Way
I Surrender Some
Part of the Way My Savior Leads
Great Is My Faithfulness
Have My Own Way, Lord
I Need Me Every Hour
Nearer My God, To Me
I'm Everything to Me
I Have Decided to Follow Jesus - oops, that a real one
My Faith Looks Up to Me


And one for the Universalist

When We ALL Get to Heaven

[iamlowsound]

Arminian Hymns

Amazing Choice
How Great I Art
Just a Closer Walk With Me
To Me Be the Glory
Take My Life and Let Me Be
Jesus Loves Me This I Hope
Jesus Paid Most Of It
It Is "OK" With My Soul
Eternal Father Tries to Save
Have Mine Own Way
I Surrender Some
Part of the Way My Savior Leads
Great Is My Faithfulness
Have My Own Way, Lord
I Need Me Every Hour
Nearer My God, To Me
I'm Everything to Me
I Have Decided to Follow Jesus - oops, that a real one
My Faith Looks Up to Me


And one for the Universalist

When We ALL Get to Heaven

Funniest post I have seen in a long time.

[jkmtwo]

  I can't stop singing When We ALL Get to Heaven AAAAAAHHHHHHHH

I'm not a universalist
I'm not a universalist
I'm not a universalist
I'm not a universalist
I'm not a universalist

This hymn is now ruined, thanks Low, thanks.

[Nerd42]

This report only came forward under the LDS Brighamite regime and Mr. Smith never said that.

Evidence? Prove it, prove he never said that, prove it.

He would have been contradicting his own earlier statements and also revelations given through him on multiple levels had he actually given that sermon.

If he had, and I'd been alive, I would have voted to excommunicate him from the very church he started, because that doctrine is not to be tolerated.

So you would have excommunicated a man, who you claim is a prophet, from the church he began,and you claim not to be a prophet, who are you to judge the prophets of God?

When two statements are irreconcilable, they cannot both be true. We know God doesn't change. Not only the Bible but also latter day revelation makes this clear. If Smith had wanted to teach this doctrine, why wasn't it in the Inspired Version of the Bible? (also known as the "Joseph Smith translation") If this sermon really was given by Smith and has not (as I think it has) been heavily altered to support later false doctrines of the LDS, then he was wrong at that point. But even so, this is from 1844 and Smith had completed the major work of his life by 1836. It would not make sense for him to introduce such a radical (and as I would argue, radically contradictory) new doctrine at such a late date.

[Nerd42]

I should perhaps point out that "Nearer My God To Me" would be the Calvinist version not, as you claim, the Armenian version because in Calvinism, God movse to come to you instead of your moving to go to Him. The thing that is supposed to move in "Naerer My God to Thee" is the individual, toward God, not the other way around. I think the rest of your parodied hymn titles are all similarly skewed and distorted.

[jkmtwo]

He would have been contradicting his own earlier statements and also revelations given through him on multiple levels had he actually given that sermon.   

Unthinkable, Joseph Smith contradict himself, now a prophet of God can prophesy falsely, but he could have never ever contradicted himself, he may even contradict the already thousands of year old word of God in the OT, and completely redefine prophecy, but he could never, and I MEAN NEVER, contradict himself. Now I got you.

When two statements are irreconcilable, they cannot both be true. We know God doesn't change. Not only the Bible but also latter day revelation makes this clear. If Smith had wanted to teach this doctrine, why wasn't it in the Inspired Version of the Bible? (also known as the "Joseph Smith translation")

Yes, but doesn't your own history state that he met God, doesn't it state that he saw a vision of a man, am I wrong here? If he actually met God, then I would think he knows better than you, and I would think you should sit down and be quiet rather than question the teachings of one of God's prophets.

See what your problem is, you are starting with the fundamental assumption that Joseph Smith was a prophet, so anything that he taught that was heretical, or that your particular branch of mormonism deems not right teaching, you say is just added by someone later, eventhough, you have no proof, actual proof, not "if this were true he would have been contradicting what he had already taught", well here is a clue, PEOPLE CONTRADICT THEMSELVES ALL THE TIME, so this is not proof, it doesn't even wash, you yourself have said, he is just a man, is it impossible to even admit that he could have contradicted his own teaching, or was he more than a man, which makes those pesky false prophecies all the more perplexing.

[linkbolt]

Arminian Hymns

Amazing Choice
How Great I Art
Just a Closer Walk With Me
To Me Be the Glory
Take My Life and Let Me Be
Jesus Loves Me This I Hope
Jesus Paid Most Of It
It Is "OK" With My Soul
Eternal Father Tries to Save
Have Mine Own Way
I Surrender Some
Part of the Way My Savior Leads
Great Is My Faithfulness
Have My Own Way, Lord
I Need Me Every Hour
Nearer My God, To Me
I'm Everything to Me
I Have Decided to Follow Jesus - oops, that a real one
My Faith Looks Up to Me


And one for the Universalist

When We ALL Get to Heaven

Good stuff.

linkbolt

[linkbolt]

Gentlemen this is not the topic for disputations on Mormonism, please cease from such arguments and save them for their appropriate thread.

Moderator Note!

linkbolt

[toddm]

Arminian Hymns

Amazing Choice
How Great I Art
Just a Closer Walk With Me
To Me Be the Glory
Take My Life and Let Me Be
Jesus Loves Me This I Hope
Jesus Paid Most Of It
It Is "OK" With My Soul
Eternal Father Tries to Save
Have Mine Own Way
I Surrender Some
Part of the Way My Savior Leads
Great Is My Faithfulness
Have My Own Way, Lord
I Need Me Every Hour
Nearer My God, To Me
I'm Everything to Me
I Have Decided to Follow Jesus - oops, that a real one
My Faith Looks Up to Me


And one for the Universalist

When We ALL Get to Heaven

FTW. "Amazing Choice" is my personal fav