Once Saved always Saved

[Thorns]

Thanks Buzz, makes sense.  I don't agree, but makes sense.

[Matthew]

I'm reminded of passages in Deuteronomy (like chapter 28) in which God says that if they rebel certain bad things will happen, and if you look into Israel's history all these things have happened to them. A warning that actually proved to be prophetic in nature.

But then Hebrews 6:4-8 does confirm that a person can become "saved" and then fall away. In by "fallen away" I take it to mean a person has gone to the stage of not wanting any part in God's kingdom anymore, chosen to turn their back, become so stubborn that they wouldn't repent even if asked. In the end they'll be burned, verse 8. But it also says some are in danger of falling away, just a little backsliden I guess but still open to a change of heart.

I disagree that the man in Hebrews 6:4-8 is saved.  He "tasted" and "partook" but did not "eat" or "consume".  He was on the edge, and we have every right to believe him a Christian, but he proves to have never partook of the grace of the Gospel and becomes doubly deserving of Hell.

I can understand when you say "taste" and "eat" do not necessarily mean the same thing but Scripture does use the same Greek word geuomai (Strong's G1089) twice, in Hebrews 6:5 it's translated as "tasted" and in Acts 20:11 it's translated as "eaten."

Hebrews 6:5 "And have tastedG1089 the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

Acts 20:11  "When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eatenG1089, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

And the word "partakers," in the sense of its Greek meaning, means to eat, have, receive, share, and take all being in association of taking part in something.

To me Hebrews 6 means that these people have taken their share in the Kingdom, but after not perservering they fell away, choosing to turn their backs on God instead, in so quenching the Holy Spirit.

[FenderPriest]

I'm reminded of passages in Deuteronomy (like chapter 28) in which God says that if they rebel certain bad things will happen, and if you look into Israel's history all these things have happened to them. A warning that actually proved to be prophetic in nature.

But then Hebrews 6:4-8 does confirm that a person can become "saved" and then fall away. In by "fallen away" I take it to mean a person has gone to the stage of not wanting any part in God's kingdom anymore, chosen to turn their back, become so stubborn that they wouldn't repent even if asked. In the end they'll be burned, verse 8. But it also says some are in danger of falling away, just a little backsliden I guess but still open to a change of heart.

I disagree that the man in Hebrews 6:4-8 is saved.  He "tasted" and "partook" but did not "eat" or "consume".  He was on the edge, and we have every right to believe him a Christian, but he proves to have never partook of the grace of the Gospel and becomes doubly deserving of Hell.

I can understand when you say "taste" and "eat" do not necessarily mean the same thing but Scripture does use the same Greek word geuomai (Strong's G1089) twice, in Hebrews 6:5 it's translated as "tasted" and in Acts 20:11 it's translated as "eaten."

Hebrews 6:5 "And have tastedG1089 the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

Acts 20:11  "When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eatenG1089, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed."

And the word "partakers," in the sense of its Greek meaning, means to eat, have, receive, share, and take all being in association of taking part in something.

To me Hebrews 6 means that these people have taken their share in the Kingdom, but after not perservering they fell away, choosing to turn their backs on God instead, in so quenching the Holy Spirit.

That's fine.  You're wrong, but you're welcome to leave your study at that if you'd like.

[DemonDeathDealer]

Wrong questions generate wrong conclusions.
Please carefully listen to this 3 part series by John Piper.
He Explains how You can NOT lose your salvation through sin.
However You have never had it in the first place.
Please take the time to listen to it. This issue can be killed quickly if you listen to John Piper and then research the bible yourself to try and disprove what he said.
This question is covered briefly but completely in one section the whole thing is worth listening to. never know might change your life
http://doyouknowwhatyoubelieve.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-to-kill-sin.html

[Swalchy]

That's fine. You're wrong

Super fantastic counter-argument Fender.

Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how Matthew is wrong?

It should be noted that the Greek geuomai has a meaning of "to taste, experience, partake in, take nourishment from, accept," and "come to know in a relational sense". And, tbh, using taste wasn't the best word to elect to translate geuomai as in Hebrews 6.


@DDD: Rather not listen to another wasted Piper sermon, ta.

[Brother TJ]

@DDD: Rather not listen to another wasted Piper sermon, ta.

I agree and I am reformed.

I think both are correct. You can get cut off but you don't lose your salvation.

[FenderPriest]

That's fine. You're wrong

Super fantastic counter-argument Fender.

Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how Matthew is wrong?

It should be noted that the Greek geuomai has a meaning of "to taste, experience, partake in, take nourishment from, accept," and "come to know in a relational sense". And, tbh, using taste wasn't the best word to elect to translate geuomai as in Hebrews 6.


@DDD: Rather not listen to another wasted Piper sermon, ta.

Swalchy,

I increasingly find these discussions on message boards pointless.  It is not so much that I don't think the arguments aren't effective or valid, it's that there is more going on in a discussion than message boards allow to be conveyed.  I personally don't know where any person is in their pursuit of godliness (except the few I keep in close contact with), and so the pursuit of where to go in the discussion is evasive.  Correct doctrine is a matter of Christian maturity, not simply parsing the Greek.  If it were just a grammatical issues, then the Pharisees and Super Apostles wouldn't have opposed Paul.  But they did.  Hence, I'm really not interested in pushing in on these discussions for the following reasons:

1) Books are better than blogs/message boards.  If people rely on message boards, they're fools.  Message boards give the illusion of progress.
2) Personal godliness is of eternal gain - I have no measure other than what people post and how they word to know where they're at.  Doctrine is an existential reality, not merely intellectual.  If you chew on that for a bit, you'll understand why I'm standing where I am.  God cares about the whole person, and so should I.
3) I don't have the time.  I'll reference books, messages, sermons, etc. because they're better, but I don't have time.  I'm also using the internet at work, and it's dishonest to use more time than is reasonable for these discussions.  We are called to "redeem the time" - message boards typically don't help facilitate this.  There are the occasions that they do, but they're rare.

As for my reply, I still stand by it.  Because I have little time, the arguments are plain (for the most part), and have referenced other, better, more helpful books, I find little value in going any further.  At some point, one must simply state the obvious (X position is wrong), dust their shoes, and move on.  It's just the reality of the Christian life at times.  Could I be more gentle?  Maybe, but refer to point #2 above for further reflection here.

Would I engage in these discussions in the future?  If I felt the Spirit's lead.  At the moment, I see a large banquet of the flesh to be had here.

Yours,
~Jacob

[Matthew]

Here's one for size!
 
Deuteronomy 22:23-24:
"23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you." This passage says virgins pledged to be married will suffer death if they sleep with another man. The metaphor becomes plain the more we read other passages of Scripture, some within the Renewed Covenant even.
 
2 Corinthians 11:2-4
"2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough." This passage is based upon the principle outlined in the previous Deuteronomy 22 passage, we are virgins while living on earth and can still be lead astray by another man. Paul wants to present the Corinthains (and us) as a pure virgin to Yahshua but he's concerned that they, who are sincere and pure in devotion, will somehow be lead astray. Paul even addresses them as saints in the opening verses, and now he's saying that he's worried they'll, which he has addressed as "saints," will be lead astray. Note: even in verse 22 of the opening chapter of 2 Corinthians Paul says they have the seal of ownership, that of Yahweh's Spirit, and says the same thing in verse 5 of chapter 5, yet he's concerned they'll be lead astray by partaking in some serious sins he lists in verse 21 of chapter 12. Note: If you read up until verse 15 of chapter 11 you'll see that those who try lead others astray, those that seduce believers (the virgins) will pay with their lives, another confirmation Paul's teachings are based upon and in the context of the Old Covenant Scriptures, he even quotes Deuteronomy 19:15 in verse 1 of chapter 13, the way he quotes it even stresses he considered the Law as still valid.
 
Leviticus 21:10-15
"10 The high priest, the one among his brothers who has had the anointing oil poured on his head and who has been ordained to wear the priestly garments, must not let his hair become unkempt or tear his clothes. 11 He must not enter a place where there is a dead body. He must not make himself unclean, even for his father or mother, 12 nor leave the sanctuary of his God or desecrate it, because he has been dedicated by the anointing oil of his God. I am Yahweh. 13 The woman he [the high priest] marries must be a virgin. 14 He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, 15 so he will not defile his offspring among his people. I am Yahweh, who makes him holy." We all know Yahshua is our High Priest, and here the high priest was explicitly told that he was to only marry a virgin, obviously symbolic of Yahshua marrying a pure virgin.

Matthew 25:1-13:
"1 At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' 7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' 9 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' 10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' 12 But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." This passage confirms that we are still virgins while while living on earth and only become "married" once we are in Heaven with Yahshua.

In other words, Scripture confirms that if we believers, who are pledged to be married to Yahshua (the High Priest), are lead astray by Satan then we will suffer death, being taken outside and stoned, obviously this means that the young girl who's no longer a virgin won't get to marry the husband she was betrothed to. The warning is clear: by accepting the gift of eternal life, by believing in Yahshua, we become pledged in marriage to Him, and we better not be lead astray while betrothed to Him because the outcome is not good.

Once saved, always saved? Definitely not.

EDIT:

Please note that I believe if we conitinue in the faith we will be saved, but if someone completely turns their back on God and does not wish to be forgiven then God can pull the branch out that was previously grafted in. Obviously God knows when that happens and when a person has crossed the line.

[jhagan09]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

[astrochannel]

Here's one for size!
 
Matthew 25:1-13:
"1 At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6 At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' 7 Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' 9 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' 10 But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11 Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' 12 But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13 Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." This passage confirms that we are still virgins while while living on earth and only become "married" once we are in Heaven with Yahshua.

This passage confirms that we are still virgins while while living on earth and only become "married" once we are in Heaven with Yahshua.

really???

I think this passages express that we should be wise and therefore keeping watch, because you don't know the the day or the hour.

[Matthew]

This passage confirms that we are still virgins while while living on earth and only become "married" once we are in Heaven with Yahshua.

really???

I think this passages express that we should be wise and therefore keeping watch, because you don't know the the day or the hour.

I do agree with you that the overall theme of Matthew 25 is talking about watching for Yahshua's arrival and being ready for it, but if you read in context of the other passages I mentioned you'll see that I wasn't addressing that but was talking about the way in which Scripture calls us spiritual virgins while in mortal bodies and us only becoming married to God once we receive our resurrected spiritual bodies.

I was also then relating it to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine, stressing that we are betrothed to Yahweh while on earth, in other words being saved, but we are forbidden to be seduced away by another man (aka Satan), because if we do turn our backs on our first love (Yahweh) we'll lose our salvation and will be married to Death or Satan instead. I say "Death or Satan" because the majority of mankind will cease to exist, Yahweh will dissipate their souls, they'll perish (John 3:16), and those going on to eternal torment are those that actively lead others astray, they've aligned themselves with Satan, joining to his spirit and actively teach deceptions, examples are some politicians, religious leaders, some in academia, etc.

[cryptic99]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

true also

[Matthew]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

true also

There was a time I wasn't saved, there was a time you weren't saved, there was a time all of us weren't saved, so guess "never saved, never gonna be saved" is a lie.

[cryptic99]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

true also

There was a time I wasn't saved, there was a time you weren't saved, there was a time all of us weren't saved, so guess "never saved, never gonna be saved" is a lie.

I didnt think that through thoroughly enough.  You are right in the fact that the first is true of all, while the second is only true of some.  My bad.

[astrochannel]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

if once saved always saved is true
what about
if not once saved always not saved

[Matthew]

Am I right in what I say regarding TULIP? -> Being predestined (as in chosen to be saved) means that a person will become saved, and then that person will remain saved regardless for the rest of their life. But if a person is not predestined (as in God did not choose the person to be saved) then that person will not be saved regardless. The saved person is supposedly drawn to God through Irresistable Grace, meaning the person could not reject it even if they wanted to, and no matter how much God shows Himself to the unsaved person (the one not chosen for salvation) the person will not choose God. Am I sort of right?

[jhagan09]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

true also

just like once saved always saved
There was a time I wasn't saved, there was a time you weren't saved, there was a time all of us weren't saved, so guess "never saved, never gonna be saved" is a lie.

[cryptic99]

Am I right in what I say regarding TULIP? -> Being predestined (as in chosen to be saved) means that a person will become saved, and then that person will remain saved regardless for the rest of their life. But if a person is not predestined (as in God did not choose the person to be saved) then that person will not be saved regardless. The saved person is supposedly drawn to God through Irresistable Grace, meaning the person could not reject it even if they wanted to, and no matter how much God shows Himself to the unsaved person (the one not chosen for salvation) the person will not choose God. Am I sort of right?

First question.  That would be the P in perseverance of the saints.  God will preserve his elect until the end, which does not mean he can live in sin as he pleases but God will continually sanctify this person, though there will be ups and downs in his walk.
Second question.  This is due to the Total depravity.  The fact is we all see God (The fool says there is no God) but God must change the heart.  BTW, I dont like the regardless in these questions because its not like the person will want to choose Christ but Christ wont accept him.  They will not want to choose God.
Third question.  The person being drawn will not want to reject it,  they will want to choose God because of the change in their heart and desires. We always choose our strongest desire in any choice we make.  The other will never choose God unless God does a work in his heart.  Again we all see God in some way, but unless God changes the heart, sin will always be more attractive than God will be.

[tocy777]

if once saved always saved is true what about never saved never gonna be saved

Like Judas....although the Bible speaks about that someone will betray Jesus..if you look he was rejecting Him always...and after all Jesus says to Peter: I was praying for you so that satan wouldnt have you soul..so it could have been Peter who betrays Him not Judas..

[Matthew]

Thanks cryptic99 for your response 

First question.  That would be the P in perseverance of the saints.  God will preserve his elect until the end, which does not mean he can live in sin as he pleases but God will continually sanctify this person, though there will be ups and downs in his walk.

So what if a person does, after a number of years in the walk, suddenly turn his back and then goes and sins as he pleases?

But here's one for OSAS, you guys might enjoy this as it strengthens your case. We all know that physical circumcision is symbolic of removing, cutting off and destroying the barrier that separates us from God, the barrier which consists of our sins and hardness of heart. But notice this: removal was a permanent procedure, there was no going back.

[riku omakie]

I'd tend to lean more towards false, yes the Lord will always love you, but if you're not obeying him and just utterly rebelling, i don't think if you where to die, you would go be with him.
I mean, why wouldn't we just all rebel and do whatever we want if we still go to heaven anyway?

[astrochannel]

Question: Did God save people on a temporary basis or permanent?

[redfrozen]

i never believed in Eternal Security other than if as in as long as you abide in Christ, you're eternally secure.  But once i became reformed, then i saw how POTS makes sense.

God is not only the Author (i've been obsessed with the depth of this concept alone for over a year) but he's also the Finisher of our faith.  I think if you understand the issues regarding him being the author properly, it's difficult to reconciling that with the possibility of losing your salvation.

Issues to understand

Original Sin which goes along with

Total Depravity/Inability
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace

Then Perseverance (or Preservation) Of The Saints made sense to me

[w4n]

i never believed in Eternal Security other than if as in as long as you abide in Christ, you're eternally secure.  But once i became reformed, then i saw how POTS makes sense.

God is not only the Author (i've been obsessed with the depth of this concept alone for over a year) but he's also the Finisher of our faith.  I think if you understand the issues regarding him being the author properly, it's difficult to reconciling that with the possibility of losing your salvation.

Issues to understand

Original Sin which goes along with

Total Depravity/Inability
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace

Then Perseverance (or Preservation) Of The Saints made sense to me

One thing to note is that perseverance of the saints is a different concept than once saved always saved.  In origin, not so much, but in  practical terms it is.  OSAS is a licentious perversion of the doctrines associated with POTS.  OSAS seems to be an excuse to indulge in sinfulness, whereas, when properly understood, the reformed doctrines of grace paint an entirely different picture of what it means to persevere in salvation, both from man's perspective and God's perspective. 

[redfrozen]

i never believed in Eternal Security other than if as in as long as you abide in Christ, you're eternally secure.  But once i became reformed, then i saw how POTS makes sense.

God is not only the Author (i've been obsessed with the depth of this concept alone for over a year) but he's also the Finisher of our faith.  I think if you understand the issues regarding him being the author properly, it's difficult to reconciling that with the possibility of losing your salvation.

Issues to understand

Original Sin which goes along with

Total Depravity/Inability
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace

Then Perseverance (or Preservation) Of The Saints made sense to me

One thing to note is that perseverance of the saints is a different concept than once saved always saved.  In origin, not so much, but in  practical terms it is.  OSAS is a licentious perversion of the doctrines associated with POTS.  OSAS seems to be an excuse to indulge in sinfulness, whereas, when properly understood, the reformed doctrines of grace paint an entirely different picture of what it means to persevere in salvation, both from man's perspective and God's perspective. 

agreed