Author Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism  (Read 110252 times)

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Offline cryptic99

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Calvinism and Arminianism
« on: November 16, 2006, 02:24:53 AM »
To tired to start it with an argument right now, but its inevitable. So go.....
"Every man dies....not every man really lives." Sir William Wallace



GO JAGUARS!!!!

Offline FenderPriest

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 07:05:53 AM »
great scott....
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Offline king_of_fools

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 08:31:50 AM »
him saying great scott was funnier when he had Christopher Loyd as his avatar

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arminianism ... ish; ftw
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Offline Trib4l

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 11:05:58 AM »
Ironically I'm not a fan of either camp since I feel I can find problems with both views.

That being said, I am obviously seriously opposed to not only Calvin, but his views as well.

I'm at work, so I'll elaborate later.

Offline FenderPriest

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 05:28:25 PM »
Ironically I'm not a fan of either camp since I feel I can find problems with both views.

That being said, I am obviously seriously opposed to not only Calvin, but his views as well.

I'm at work, so I'll elaborate later.

Trib,

I realize you were at work when you posted this, but I've seen several posts akin to this on these parts, and I'd appreciate it, when you get the time, if you could write up a break down of what your problems with the Doctrines of Grace/Augustinianism/Calvinism/Reformed Doctrines.  I appreciate your honesty in posting your opposition to these views but find it frustrating that this is about all I see you doing.  If you could, maybe go through TULIP and explain why you disagree, point by point, supported by scripture (obviously).  It just helps you know?  It doesn't have to be lengthy, maybe a "I disagree with Irresistable grace because it makes conversion seem like people being forced to do what they hate" or something like that, then support it which whatever scripture you feel best supports your claim.  Just looking for clarity here.

Yours in Christ,
~Jacob
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Offline Trib4l

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 06:30:08 PM »
Soon as I get the chance, I plan on it. I feel there are many scriptural references that render some of those teachings null.  :D Clarity will be provided.

I'll probably have a light workload tomorrow. I'm about to tear my PC apart to get it ready for a LAN event, so I'll be posting from work until I get to the LAN tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks!

Offline Thorns

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2006, 06:47:30 AM »
Quote
of Grace/Augustinianism/Calvinism/Reformed Doctrines
is the name getting longer or is it just me?  LOL,  JKJK
Teachers of religion have always attempted to raise their insights to the level of utterance, dogma, creed. Yet such utterances must be taken as indications, as attempts to convey what cannot be adequately expressed, if they are not to stand in the way of authentic faith

Heschel

Offline FenderPriest

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 09:05:13 AM »
Quote
Doctrines of Grace/Augustinianism/Calvinism/Reformed Doctrines
is the name getting longer or is it just me?  LOL,  JKJK

haha... no, well yes, i mean no..... It's just me trying to show that the doctrines of "Calvinism" have been around much longer than Calvin and depend very little upon him for their existence.  Along these lines, you guys might be interested in this lecture on Clement of Rome: Church Fathers: Clement of Rome.

Enjoy!
~Jacob
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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 10:38:57 AM »
Could someone give me a brief description of the two? I am not to sharp on my theology but I am willing to learn.

By_Blood_Immortal

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 12:10:39 PM »
Arminianism is the belief  that man has freewill to choose God or to not choose God on his own.
Calvinism is the belief  that God must first "call" man to him, that man can not choose God on his own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is about as brief as it gets.  And about as deep as the tips of grass.  That is the basic principle.

I do not have time to type since I am suppose to be doing homework, so here are some good sites.[/color]
About Tulip and John Wesley's Arminian response
Answering Questions about Calvinism
Arguement for Calvinism



the main thing people have agaisnt calvinism is that they do not want to believe that God would send "innocent" people to hell.  Guess what?  NOBODY is innocent, everyone is a sinner, and therefore, not innocent.  God can do whatever he wants anyway, he is God.  Who are we to say that he can't do that?  He IS justice.  Our version of justice was set in place by God to keep Chaos from completely ravaging the earth.  But He IS justice.  he is not confined to our defentions.

here is my uneducated opinion:
neither is true entirely, but it is somewhere in between that the truth dwells.

I want to know what your opinion is on this belief.  Man is completely sinful (the T in TULIP) and cannot come to God unless God calls him.  God, not desiring that any should perish, calls EVERYONE to become a Christian.  God "calls" people by removing the barrier that completely blocks out any desire for God.  man still has the free choice to follow him or not, but man cannot get to God without being called. 

I have been thinking about this for some time.  it makes a lot of sense in my head, but when I try to write it, it is hard for me to explain.   I am curious as to what anyone has to say about this.  Any flaws or additions or anything you can think of.

Offline FenderPriest

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 12:19:25 PM »
Arminianism is the belief  that man has freewill to choose God or to not choose God on his own.
Calvinism is the belief  that God must first "call" man to him, that man can not choose God on his own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is about as brief as it gets.  And about as deep as the tips of grass.  That is the basic principle.

I do not have time to type since I am suppose to be doing homework, so here are some good sites.[/color]
About Tulip and John Wesley's Arminian response
Answering Questions about Calvinism


Just to balance your links, here's some resources for Calvinism.
I am at rest.
Posting of my last.
Ite, Missa est.

By_Blood_Immortal

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 01:06:29 PM »
thanks, i accidentally posted before I was completely done so I modified it.

Offline asmith

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 01:38:39 PM »
Arminianism is the belief  that man has freewill to choose God or to not choose God on his own.
Calvinism is the belief  that God must first "call" man to him, that man can not choose God on his own.
I thought the Calvinists belief is only certain people are called.  Arminianism is the belief that all men are called and are free to make a choice.

broken.

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 02:27:00 PM »
Well one verse of the bible comes to mind.

"Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you."

So judging by that I'd have to say Im leaning towards Arminianism

But then, one other hand.. God calls people on His own.

Offline king_of_fools

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 02:34:24 PM »
i think its both broken, like you said i think we both have to draw close.

thats what makes it a relationship, it wouldnt be if it was one sided and the other side had no choice

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By_Blood_Immortal

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 02:37:37 PM »
Arminianism is the belief  that man has freewill to choose God or to not choose God on his own.
Calvinism is the belief  that God must first "call" man to him, that man can not choose God on his own.
I thought the Calvinists belief is only certain people are called.  Arminianism is the belief that all men are called and are free to make a choice.

Quote
Ya, that is true.  But I was trying to make it ETREMELY basic.  I failed.

Well one verse of the bible comes to mind.

"Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you."

So judging by that I'd have to say Im leaning towards Arminianism

But then, one other hand.. God calls people on His own.

I'm not doubting it is in there, but can you tell me the reference?

Offline Thorns

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 02:43:23 PM »
He was referring to the poster "broken" not that Arminianism is broken.   That can be confusing, lol
Teachers of religion have always attempted to raise their insights to the level of utterance, dogma, creed. Yet such utterances must be taken as indications, as attempts to convey what cannot be adequately expressed, if they are not to stand in the way of authentic faith

Heschel

Offline king_of_fools

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 02:44:29 PM »
lol yes yes, i was using his screen name not making a comment

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Offline Smummel

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2006, 02:53:02 PM »
I believe that in some regards both are true.  God has called all men, and given everyone the freewill to choose, as a demonstration of His love for us.  So too, God is sovereign, and like Psalm 139:16 says, He knows our entire lives ahead of time, He knows the decisions we will make, and He knows who will choose life and who will choose death.  As humans we can never fully understand how God can both know and give a freewill simultaneously, but that is why God created Faith; so that we might trust Him despite our ignorance, or even in light of our ignorance!

Offline Thorns

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2006, 02:58:15 PM »
Well, the original teachings of Jacob Arminius would agree with every thing you had just said Smummel.  Much like many in the Reformed doctrines have stretched its teachings beyond what was originally taught, so have many people in the Arminian circle.  I have been reading some on what Jacob originally taught and it does not line up with the "open Theism" that gets unduly credited to him. 

Just my 2 cents for the day,  this topic has worn me out for the time being.

in Christ
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Teachers of religion have always attempted to raise their insights to the level of utterance, dogma, creed. Yet such utterances must be taken as indications, as attempts to convey what cannot be adequately expressed, if they are not to stand in the way of authentic faith

Heschel

Offline FenderPriest

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2006, 07:02:53 PM »
thats what makes it a relationship, it wouldnt be if it was one sided and the other side had no choice

Calvinists do not deny that people have a choice in their relationship with God.
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Offline FenderPriest

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2006, 07:11:58 PM »
Ok, I've seen a few people on here say that both Calvinism and Arminianism are true, or that both have good parts, or a possition of like wording that says that there's a middle ground between the two positions.  Can you who claim such a position explain this to me?  Because what you're doing is saying that systems of underestanding of salvation have parts that you like, taking them out and claiming to form another third system of understanding salvation.  Maybe it's just me, but I like things to be explained out, shown, validated from Scripture, objections refuted, but I'd appreciate it if you who think that hold to the "Middle ground" position could show how this works it self out.  What I mean is: describe the state of man before conversion, his state "under Adam" (Romans 5) so to speak, then how it is that this state is overcome, how grace and the will work in these matters, what the state of the sinner is after conversion, and what is to come in their new life, if and how they can stay there, and to what hope they look towards.  I realize people will be tempted to just show scripture and say "That's what I believe," and I appreciate this form of presenting one's views, but I think we would all hope to believe what Scripture teaches, and I would at least appreciate if you would exposite, or show what the verse means in addition to quoting it.  Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
~Jacob
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Offline asmith

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2006, 09:02:46 PM »
thats what makes it a relationship, it wouldnt be if it was one sided and the other side had no choice

Calvinists do not deny that people have a choice in their relationship with God.

Fender, you have really confused me here with saying that Calvinists do not deny that people have a choice in their relationship with God.  I was under the impression that the 'Irresistable Grace' point meant that people had no choice, God did all the choosing.

Offline cryptic99

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2006, 03:00:12 AM »
thats what makes it a relationship, it wouldnt be if it was one sided and the other side had no choice

Calvinists do not deny that people have a choice in their relationship with God.

Fender, you have really confused me here with saying that Calvinists do not deny that people have a choice in their relationship with God.  I was under the impression that the 'Irresistable Grace' point meant that people had no choice, God did all the choosing.

People will always choose thier strongest desires.  The "T" in TULIP stands for total depravity.  I believe this must be understood befor you can understand further in the calvanist theology.  It is not that just parts of us are sinful while others are pure.  All parts of us are affected by sin; our intellects, our emotions and desires, our hearts (the center of our desires and decision making process), Our goals & motives, and our physical bodies.  Rom 7:18 Paul says, "I know that nothing good dwells within me. that is, in my flesh". Titus 1:5 "to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure, thier very minds and conciences are corrupted".  Jer 17:9 "the heart is decietful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it"?  Romans 3 “None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
 
The bible talks about how we were dead to sin, not just sick.  Eph 2:1-2 "You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked".  And in John 8:34 it says "every one who commits a sin is a slave to sin".  Please note the word slave here.

From here we can see that we are slaves to sin. We will always choose our strongest desires.  Our strongest desire prior to God changing our heart will always be sin.  We were haters of God.  The calvanist view of predestination teaches that God actively intervenes into the lives of the elect to make absolutely sure they are saved.  Of coarse the rest are given an "opportunity" to be saved "if they want to".  But calvanism assumes that without the intervension of Christ, noone will ever want Christ.
"Every man dies....not every man really lives." Sir William Wallace



GO JAGUARS!!!!

Offline yongxun

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Re: Calvanism vs Arminianism
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2006, 08:52:51 AM »
who came out with this two theory?